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Well no...
I guess I'll me sitting in my car for another two-three hours tomorrow morning.
Actually I did make some good progress this morning. I got real close to the tonality I'm after. But my center image isn't as defined as it was before.
I find phase and polarity a bit baffling. It seems that when speakers are out of phase around one frequency and you flip polarity then you're out of phase a half octave down the slope?
This makes things kinda difficult to dial in when your running 6db slopes. I'll be listening to a particular song and flip the polarity of a midbass and boom! Everything centers up and the lows in that song are clean and powerful. Then a few songs down the list I'll listen to one that has midbass in a different area of frequencies and everything is muddy again. So I proceed to flip the polarity of the same driver back the way it was and boom everything is right again. It's enough to make me scream!
Advice please?
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
what slopes are you using? 6 and 18 db/oct?
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2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WOOSEY
what slopes are you using? 6 and 18 db/oct?
It's different for the left and right.
The right side midbass has 6db on the bottom and 12 on the top and the widebanders has 12db on the bottom end.
Attachment 487
Now the left side I set up to move more frequencies @ xo down to the midbass in an attempt to widen the stage to the left. The driver midbass has 6db slope on the top and the widebander has 24db on the bottom.
Attachment 488
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
I mostly try to stick with even or odd order.. rather not mixed up.. what happens if you set your widebander on 18db? 6db/oct is practically the same just 180 degrees off..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
WOOSEY
I mostly try to stick with even or odd order.. rather not mixed up.. what happens if you set your widebander on 18db? 6db/oct is practically the same just 180 degrees off..
So I should switch all my steeper slopes to 18 & 30?
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WOOSEY
I mostly try to stick with even or odd order.. rather not mixed up.. what happens if you set your widebander on 18db? 6db/oct is practically the same just 180 degrees off..
You are thinking electrically, shit goes all to fuckers once it leaves the speaker, you can mix slopes in a car.
It's not uncommon to mix slopes outside the car too, happens all the time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
chad
You are thinking electrically, shit goes all to fuckers once it leaves the speaker, you can mix slopes in a car.
It's not uncommon to mix slopes outside the car too, happens all the time.
So what would your advice be for me?
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
chad
I need to read back
Well it is a forum ain't it? Read a few posts and get back to me.
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
Had work shit to do, now I have to go to bed.
Morning comes early.
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
FWIW- All my slopes are 24 and underlapped. Stage is only 6-8" outside of mirrors tho.
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chad
You are thinking electrically, shit goes all to fuckers once it leaves the speaker, you can mix slopes in a car.
It's not uncommon to mix slopes outside the car too, happens all the time.
I know, but there's still a phase-shift which imo should be quasi the same.. ( think of harmonics )
Phase is a real dick in a car.. I know.. I just personally never try to mix em...
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OKAY...
So I just wrapped another 3+ hour tuning session. Things are coming together!
So yet again I saved my settings and started from scratch. This time I was very much more attentive to t/a. I used the method Woosey suggested and t/a'ed with vocals instead of pink noise. The tracks I used were Phil Collins-Take a look at me now and Seal's-Kiss from a rose.
I like this method for almost everything except for the midbass. When I t/a'ed my L8s (after determining the driver side midbass needed the polarity flipped) I noticed very little change in image. I even tried with crossovers bypassed and achieved the same results. It seemed like the center most image was achieved when both had no delay. But I did settle on a 1/2 msec. for the driver side because this was the point at which I could no longer hear two speakers but all the sound seemed to coerce together, even though the center image pulled to the right of the console a bit. I figured not being able to locate the speakers was the lesser of two weevils.
When I t/a'ed between the midbass and the dash speakers I first tried woosey's suggestion of bringing all the vocals up top and I didn't like it and got some delay figures that were way off for my left/right dash alignment. So instead I did the same thing as with the midbasses, I delayed the FR-89s until I could no longer hear two speakers and both coerced into one sound. Now this did leave the majority of the vocals up top (maybe I was listening for the wrong thing) and the delay numbers worked out just about right.
Do y'all put your center under the rear view or right in front of you?
Up next was the auto eq. This time I paid attention to my response graphs. When I measured the L8s I noticed they drop off significantly beyond 300hz. So I was wasting nearly a whole octave of eq power trying to get the L8s flat where the Founteks are more capable. So I dropped my crossover points to 300hz between the midbass and widebanders. I still kept the shallower LP slope on the driver side, I'm convinced this helps with stage width.
I also want to retain that fat bottom end I like so I dropped the L8's HP to 80hz and steepened the slope to 12db. I knew the auto eq would take out all the low freq. peaks so I auto eq'ed with the subs off so it would read less bass and let the subs fill the bottom back in after the eq settings were applied. I left the subs LP at 100hz to achieve this. I also retained much of my bottom end by leaving the target curve on the L8s 10db louder than the target curve for the Founteks.
The results are outstanding! I now have a systems that has decent imaging on songs that require it and it can beat my brains out with crappy electronic/club music too! Everything blends so much better and sounds natural and my subs don't pull to the back as bad anymore.
I have 6 channels of eq still unused on the left and right but I don't think I'll do anything with them until I can get someone with golden ears and a tuner's touch to listen to my car and show me what I'm really supposed to be doing.
Any thoughts?
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fricasseekid
Do y'all put your center under the rear view or right in front of you?
I keep it right in beteween those spots... between steeringwheel and mirror... @ eye height.... and depth is crazy for the little car I have... sometimes about 6 - 7 feet.. depends on the song...
Nice to hear it sounds good to you now...
As soon as you don't screw with the buttons and settings of the install anymore it sounds right to you.. ;)
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
Have you done any waterfall plots on each speaker to see if you have any late reflections/reverberations?
"lesser of two weevils" nice Master and Commander reference ;)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
WOOSEY
I keep it right in beteween those spots... between steeringwheel and mirror... @ eye height.... and depth is crazy for the little car I have... sometimes about 6 - 7 feet.. depends on the song...
Nice to hear it sounds good to you now...
As soon as you don't screw with the buttons and settings of the install anymore it sounds right to you.. ;)
Depth?! How do I get that?
Shit my image is pretty much 2 dimensional. Maybe I could come up with 2ft. if I gave it to here 2 or 3 times. :(
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
AL9000
Have you done any waterfall plots on each speaker to see if you have any late reflections/reverberations?
"lesser of two weevils" nice Master and Commander reference ;)
What good would knowing about reflections I can do anything about help me?
I was wondering if anyone would catch that!
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
I'm no expert on tuning, and I've never used waterfall plots simply because I haven't had the equipment to do them thus far. From what I understand (very little), a waterfall of each channel will show if you have issues with the driver reflecting off surfaces, panels reverberating at frequency, etc. If you run a plot and the decay is a sharp cut, then you're good...but if it's a slow decay, then whatever is causing it is messing with your imaging. You can mess with stuff like covering reflective surfaces and deadening panels to see if you can pinpoint what is causing the slow decay.
Does that make sense?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
AL9000
I'm no expert on tuning, and I've never used waterfall plots simply because I haven't had the equipment to do them thus far. From what I understand (very little), a waterfall of each channel will show if you have issues with the driver reflecting off surfaces, panels reverberating at frequency, etc. If you run a plot and the decay is a sharp cut, then you're good...but if it's a slow decay, then whatever is causing it is messing with your imaging. You can mess with stuff like covering reflective surfaces and deadening panels to see if you can pinpoint what is causing the slow decay.
Does that make sense?
Yes! Perfect sense. But anything that involves me taking my car apart again makes me sad. Lol
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
I would start with simple stuff. Maybe put a towel over a window or reflective surface and see if it changes the decay. You might not be able to fix the problem once you've found it, but at least you will know the culprit.
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
Did you try with the pods closed and stuffed? maybe they will peak in the right region..
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
Hey, I just read in Al's thread Wavelengths by frequency that 300hz has a wavelength of 3.76 feet... maybe they cancel out since they are playing ib...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
WOOSEY
Hey, I just read in Al's thread Wavelengths by frequency that 300hz has a wavelength of 3.76 feet... maybe they cancel out since they are playing ib...
I actually kinda figured the drop off was due to the midbass being so far off axis.
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1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AL9000
I would start with simple stuff. Maybe put a towel over a window or reflective surface and see if it changes the decay. You might not be able to fix the problem once you've found it, but at least you will know the culprit.
Ok so here is the waterfall plot for my driver side midbass.
Attachment 503
Can you make sense of it? Cause all I can see is that the louder the frequency plays the longer it stays around.
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
That's deema's Hanatsu's territory :D
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fricasseekid
I actually kinda figured the drop off was due to the midbass being so far off axis.
What you said is true.. the widebanders backwave could be cancelling out the midbasses.. I meant the widebanders cancel it's own output..... 2 possible problems.. :D
I meant the widebanders may be fuller in sound with a closed enclosure;) and maybe they wil make a bump in the lower region..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
WOOSEY
What you said is true.. the widebanders backwave could be cancelling out the midbasses.. I meant the widebanders cancel it's own output..... 2 possible problems.. :D
I meant the widebanders may be fuller in sound with a closed enclosure;) and maybe they wil make a bump in the lower region..
Well I do have the pods stuffed with poly fill.
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fricasseekid
Well I do have the pods stuffed with poly fill.
got duct tape? or some clv left.. worth the try imo
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I'm really not sure what you're getting at Woosey?
Above you made like three different statements and suggested they all might be true. My measurements have not indicated that there is a bump in the lower region of the Fountek's response. So?
Also what do you mean by CLV? I'm out of MLV but have tons of CCF left.
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
I don't know what the correlation is but I was recently on another audio forum that had a lot of conversation about oatmeal. Have you tried that? I'm always into trying new innovations. I think a steel cut oatmeal will go a long way further than polyfill for creating additional surface area in your pods. Just my $.02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrSpankaroni
I don't know what the correlation is but I was recently on another audio forum that had a lot of conversation about oatmeal. Have you tried that? I'm always into trying new innovations. I think a steel cut oatmeal will go a long way further than polyfill for creating additional surface area in your pods. Just my $.02
It would probably make a good sound deadener.
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fricasseekid
It would probably make a good sound deadener.
Ground finely it may work well to thicken fiberglass resin :pepper:
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fricasseekid
I'm really not sure what you're getting at Woosey?
Above you made like three different statements and suggested they all might be true. My measurements have not indicated that there is a bump in the lower region of the Fountek's response. So?
Also what do you mean by CLV? I'm out of MLV but have tons of CCF left.
Ah.. my bad... I assumed the drop-off was there with both drivers playing... With CLV I meant dampingsheets.. aka sounddeadener..
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
Damn read back what I wrote last night.. Shame on me and my weed... :D
Do you have a plot of your midbass when it plays fullrange?
I realise your founteks do not show a bump in the lower region.. But when they play in a closed enclosure there might occur a bump which may actually be helpful..
Understand where i'm going?:D
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So if the Founteks do have a bump in the lower response I could overlap crossovers points?
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fricasseekid
So if the Founteks do have a bump in the lower response I could overlap crossovers points?
Maybe... maybe even underlap because the lower region of the founteks is probably louder than in the open pods.. Do you understand what I mean?
The thing is, they are pretty small (sd) , a lot of the low freq. energy now disappears behind the dash, possibly canceling out itself and/or the hybrids... In a closed enclosure they can build up some pressure, reducing excursion and enhancing the lower end of it's range..
Edit: With a Qts of 0.452 they probably perform better in a closed enclosure.. Looked at the specsheet and they really have a nice frequency-range...
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I haven't tried to see how low they will go. Maybe this evening I'll play around with some lower HP points and measure them and see what kind of output I can get. I can't seal the pods unfortunately cause the hole that vents them into the dash is where I feed the speaker wire into the pods.
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Re: Fric Epic-urious build thread! People have cried...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fricasseekid
I haven't tried to see how low they will go. Maybe this evening I'll play around with some lower HP points and measure them and see what kind of output I can get. I can't seal the pods unfortunately cause the hole that vents them into the dash is where I feed the speaker wire into the pods.
Satisfied with the sound now?
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I never did get the chance to mess with it. And no I'm not. I'm gonna tear my doors back apart today and see if I can't figure out why the L8 aren't louder. The damn things hit my legs like jackhammers and I can fell my pant legs vibrating like crazy but I can barely hear them. I think it's an install issue.