my 2012 mk6 gti build

I've had two customer cars with the regular PS8 that have issues, but one of them has (twice now) stopped turning on the amplifiers. It is putting out 2.3V on the turn on output. The amplifier turn on wiring is run on a relay, so it isn't overcurrent. It's really kinda turned me away from wanting to use Arc. Let us know how the PS8Pro holds up. Admittedly, the car in question seems to put out up to 16V from the alternator, so I'm not sure what to do short of using some kind of buck convertor or something to regulate it.

Jay
 
The website says 16.8. It's not getting that high, but we contacted Arc the first time it happened and they suggested we swap units. Rumor has it that we (meaning I) get to waste time swapping it for a BitOneHD and retune it. Yay. I'll hit up Brian about it when I get the current Pain in My Ass out of the shop.
 
Man this build is f*cking disgusting sir........I love it. I've been trying to come to terms with what amps I want to use as well as whether or not rear fill is an option (I don't plan to ever compete so it's just for my own madness and I know I'm not searching for scores) and knowing that I can at least go hard on power for the speakers I'm using puts me at ease. I'd love to hear this bad boy...especially a Roots album on it. Great job man.
 
Nate, I've been visiting this log obsessively since I joined the site and I appreciate you breaking down the thought process behind your decisions. I have a follow up question about your power decisions....are you just running the power to the speakers without gain adjustment ( I apologize I'm not sure how to word it exactly) or anything like that. Basically I'm asking if you're legit running a full 700 watts ( I presume 350 a piece?) to your midbasses and they have been taking it without issue? I'm asking because I am wondering should I rethink my amplification and approach it in a similar way. Does tuning and ensuring that the speakers are within their safe playing ranges ensure that there will be less of an issue of cooking the speakers with that much power?

Also, how much are you running to your tweeters?


here's some why with this build, since some is a bit unconventional:
why mlv in the doors? minimize subwoofer resonances in the doors.
why sheet lead on the floors, as well as MLV, CCF, CLD, and factory deadening? get rid of remaining kickpanel midbass tactile feedback.
why upgrade from 3/4" r2004 to to 1" r3004 tweeters? 5-6db more sensitive across much of the passband, for effortlessness/realism i detected while helping a few people tune their r3004s out here.
why upgrade from 10" subs to 12" subs? effortlessness on the bottom half octave (20-30hz). for a given output, less cone movement means less tactile feedback
why 1100w to the subs? extra power to power through slightly smaller enclosures. they're in slightly undersized (1cu ft vs 1.2cu ft) sealed enclosures.
why 700w to the midbasses? same reason as the subs, but really helps with dynamics and impact.
why 325w to midranges? helps with detail and dynamics.
why rear fill aimed that way? conventional wisdom is forward for depth, side-to-side for width. i don't need any more width so i aimed for opposite headrests (of sorts) to help with depth/layering. rear-fill's been off all year long though.
why replace illusion c8s with ad w800neos? get 100% of the magnet structure behind the cone, avoid chuffing noises (air moving in the coil gap) as the cone moves
why sail monitors? all the width.
 
Nate, I've been visiting this log obsessively since I joined the site and I appreciate you breaking down the thought process behind your decisions. I have a follow up question about your power decisions....are you just running the power to the speakers without gain adjustment ( I apologize I'm not sure how to word it exactly) or anything like that. Basically I'm asking if you're legit running a full 700 watts ( I presume 350 a piece?) to your midbasses and they have been taking it without issue? I'm asking because I am wondering should I rethink my amplification and approach it in a similar way. Does tuning and ensuring that the speakers are within their safe playing ranges ensure that there will be less of an issue of cooking the speakers with that much power?
Also, how much are you running to your tweeters?

Nate dawg in the house! :D

But seriously, Excellent questions as I’ve wondered the same myself.

I’m assuming tuning and modeling make all this big power work, especially when you’re giving 1100watts to each of those subs.
 
It's a common misconception that an amp is putting out full power all the time. The only time this amp would put out 700w is if he was listening to test tones full-blast. Under normal listening conditions, it's only putting out a fraction of that power.
The amp gain is basically a volume control used to level the output between the source and the amp. In this case, the DSP is acting as the gain.

...at least that's how I see it
 
ahhhh that's right, that's right. That's where I need to adjust my thinking.
Thanks Al.

It's a common misconception that an amp is putting out full power all the time. The only time this amp would put out 700w is if he was listening to test tones full-blast. Under normal listening conditions, it's only putting out a fraction of that power.
The amp gain is basically a volume control used to level the output between the source and the amp. In this case, the DSP is acting as the gain.

...at least that's how I see it
 
i could have done a few of the 4ch amps+sub amps or 5ch amps+sub amps. the 6ch amplifiers providing a lot of power, flexibility, and are the same chassis as the sub amps. this satisfied a symmetry OCD as well. :)

nick :)

Basically I'm asking if you're legit running a full 700 watts ( I presume 350 a piece?) to your midbasses and they have been taking it without issue?
nah, 700w each. no problems.

Also, how much are you running to your tweeters?
stereo channels off the amps, so like 150w each - https://www.arcaudio.com/store?p=107112

It's a common misconception that an amp is putting out full power all the time.
yeah, i chose it for dynamics and micro details at all volume levels. combined with enough input voltage, there's a more proper amount of pressure on my eardrums. instruments sound more natural. attack and decay are better.

these amps will produce full power with like 3.75vrms in. dsp puts out 8vrms as well. -5db test tones for setting gains, i can measure clipping output around 3.7vrms input. they'll put out max power with gains at minimum but gains are like 1/8 to 1/4 up. dsp output channels are -10db for midbasses, -6db for midranges, -3db for tweeters, and 0db for subs (not accounting for near-side lower levels). there's more to this near the end.

most recordings, i can do 80-90db around 30-50% radio volume. 60-75% for 110db w/ 115db dynamics.

part of the gain structure also has to do w/ the meca competition cd/content and the scoresheet. the content's got quite a bit of dynamic range, so the recordings seem quiet (except for the dynamic bits). with meca content, the radio volume is 60-75% for 80-90db. linearity tests can go to 100% radio volume for 110-115db.

for the meca score sheet, to score 9/10-10/10 in a tonality category, you need to be able to hit 115db dynamics and remain composed/balanced. for the Drum Improvisation (it's compressed to hell on youtube but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93u5XIFblGU ) track, it's 100% radio volume, but it does hit 115db dynamics.

i analyzed and uploaded the meca CD awhile ago - http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/153763

i did the iasca 2016 disc too, which always felt flat (and you can see it in the dynamic range scores) - http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/153762

when i first got it back from JT and started tuning with it, subs sound fine at like 80-90db but way too much at 105db. so this led me to playing w/ levels and gain structure to get it balanced while still maintaining 20hz extension.

getting gain structures optimized for these constraints takes time. getting the gains balanced between all the speakers for linearity is tough. i've sat in many cars where you get on it and the subs don't keep up or the subs run away and overpower the rest of the sound. or tweeters become way too powerful and unbalanced. or the midrange speakers sound distorted while everything else sounds fine. i've sat in many cars that barely hit 95db dynamics w/ the meca content

it's certainly not a typical setup, your mileage may vary :)
 
I’m assuming tuning and modeling make all this big power work, especially when you’re giving 1100watts to each of those subs.
they want 600w rms, 1200w max. friends recommended like 1000w and 1.2cu each.

https://www.illusionaudio-america.com/products/carbon-c12-xl/

the x2 650.1 didn't seem like it'd be enough power.

i made some cardboard cutouts to plan this upgrade in fall 2018. the longer 1100.1/1200.6 chassis made more sense than smaller amplifiers in the space i had. also, it simplified power distribution in this small car.
 
i could have done a few of the 4ch amps+sub amps or 5ch amps+sub amps. the 6ch amplifiers providing a lot of power, flexibility, and are the same chassis as the sub amps. this satisfied a symmetry OCD as well. :)

nick :)

nah, 700w each. no problems.


stereo channels off the amps, so like 150w each - https://www.arcaudio.com/store?p=107112


yeah, i chose it for dynamics and micro details at all volume levels. combined with enough input voltage, there's a more proper amount of pressure on my eardrums. instruments sound more natural. attack and decay are better.

these amps will produce full power with like 3.75vrms in. dsp puts out 8vrms as well. -5db test tones for setting gains, i can measure clipping output around 3.7vrms input. they'll put out max power with gains at minimum but gains are like 1/8 to 1/4 up. dsp output channels are -10db for midbasses, -6db for midranges, -3db for tweeters, and 0db for subs (not accounting for near-side lower levels). there's more to this near the end.

most recordings, i can do 80-90db around 30-50% radio volume. 60-75% for 110db w/ 115db dynamics.

part of the gain structure also has to do w/ the meca competition cd/content and the scoresheet. the content's got quite a bit of dynamic range, so the recordings seem quiet (except for the dynamic bits). with meca content, the radio volume is 60-75% for 80-90db. linearity tests can go to 100% radio volume for 110-115db.

for the meca score sheet, to score 9/10-10/10 in a tonality category, you need to be able to hit 115db dynamics and remain composed/balanced. for the Drum Improvisation (it's compressed to hell on youtube but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93u5XIFblGU ) track, it's 100% radio volume, but it does hit 115db dynamics.

i analyzed and uploaded the meca CD awhile ago - http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/153763

i did the iasca 2016 disc too, which always felt flat (and you can see it in the dynamic range scores) - http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/153762

when i first got it back from JT and started tuning with it, subs sound fine at like 80-90db but way too much at 105db. so this led me to playing w/ levels and gain structure to get it balanced while still maintaining 20hz extension.

getting gain structures optimized for these constraints takes time. getting the gains balanced between all the speakers for linearity is tough. i've sat in many cars where you get on it and the subs don't keep up or the subs run away and overpower the rest of the sound. or tweeters become way too powerful and unbalanced. or the midrange speakers sound distorted while everything else sounds fine. i've sat in many cars that barely hit 95db dynamics w/ the meca content

it's certainly not a typical setup, your mileage may vary :)

Ffffuuuccckk mmmeeee, I apologize Nick. Typing too fast at work i didn't even register the flub.
 
I've always wondered why you had so much hate for the Helix controller. Then I re-read this thread and saw your pics with the knob in the glovebox.
My Helix knob will randomly pop off every few months or so (and usually hide in between the seat and center console or under the seat). I almost never touch the thing.
Is that why? Or does it at least contribute?

I'm picking up some gear for a new build, and we had an extra X2 600.4 shroud lying around, so I was thinking I'd be original-ish and hide my non-Arc processor under it to match the X2 1200.6 I'll be running. Then when I came over to your build thread to look at your use of melamine foam, I see it wasn't so original-ish. I'm betting I saw this before and it was a sub-concious thing, I'm probably going to steal the idea, anyway. lol

How thick was the foam you used? I see a lot of 1/2" and I see it's also available in 1". I forget why you said you used it, was it to keep the headliner and stuff from vibrating?

Thanks. It's been a while since I've done a "from-scratch" build, and I'm excited...so I'm brushing up.

Jay
 
giving these a try - arc rs 1.0. painted flanges to match to the 12m a bit better. two coats of high-fill primer and rustoleum fine metal finish in black.

51541C6E-4A16-446A-8BA6-1A2E38EFFE67.jpg


DAC50A53-2089-4765-B6DD-47ACCFA29B59.jpg


matches pretty good:
2BDAA811-D656-4A83-B103-C6EABB5DDD10.jpg


not as fragile as scanspeak tweeter tabs:
92B0E85A-0A05-45B5-ABAF-136C6C67A499.jpg


finish matches pretty well:
165CC5FC-8817-4F40-BEE6-BBE55FD2FEAA.jpg
 
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