I boost my digital input from my Audi by 8 or 9dB and run my amps with the gain all the way down. I could get a lot more output, but I don't feel like I need it and it is dead quiet.
Helix DSP.3 help thread
- Thread starter jtrosky
- Start date
I boost my digital input from my Audi by 8 or 9dB and run my amps with the gain all the way down. I could get a lot more output, but I don't feel like I need it and it is dead quiet.
Thanks Doug - good to know that someone else is doing exactly what I was considering doing - with good results.
I'm struggling to wrap my head around the whole digital signal thing in regards to input/output levels and clipping... Devices don't have any "dials" to control the input sensitivity of digital inputs since they are, well, digital.
I think you previously mentioned that the AmpPro 4 device that I have between my OEM head-unit and the DSP.3 will NOT clip - is that correct? Obviously, the AmpPro 4 takes line-level analog input signals from the head-unit and converts them to variable-level digital outputs. It seems that variable-level digital outputs are somewhat rare? Even the Helix manual suggests that most optical outputs don't provide volume-level information (which may be why there isn't a whole lot of info about this stuff out there?).So I'm just trying to get a better understanding of digital signals and levels/clipping. For example, how do I detect clipping with digital signals? Obviously, I can't check the signals with a multimeter or o-scope since they are not analog signals. Can/should I use the Helix input analyzer to monitor the digital signal level coming into the DSP.3?
Since I'm going to try boosting the optical input in the DSP.3, how do I determine how *much* I should boost the optical input signal?
There isn't much info out there in regards to the AmpPro 4 optical output - or monitoring optical signal levels in general - and how they relate to clipping. Obviously, digital clipping is different than analog clipping - so again, I'm just trying to understand it all a little better.
Thanks for any input you (or anyone else!) may have to offer!
Oddly a perk of running a 12v converted Apple TV 3rd gen with optical output direct into my helix dsp pro 2 is I can then stream direct digital via WiFi and I get a volume control via my phone tidal digital direct wireless streaming is something I will compare to wired and Bluetooth via my alpine 178bt (so far there’s very little difference between wired into the alpine and Bluetooth also...
tidal digital direct wireless streaming is something I will compare to wired and Bluetooth via my alpine 178bt (so far there’s very little difference between wired into the alpine and Bluetooth also...So this is how my before/after EQ ended up with on my Helix DSP.3. Used the same basic curve that I did with my DSR-1, but my system *definitely* sounds better with the Helix! Yes, I used more PEQ bands than most would, but hey - it works for me, so I really don't care. The system sounds fantastic, so I'm not concerned with how many PEQ bands it took to get there. The left/right *do* match up REALLY well though.
Here are the before and after EQ frequency response graphs (this is for dash, door and rear-deck speakers only - don't have a before/after for the sub handy).
BEFORE EQ:
AFTER EQ:
Here are the before and after EQ frequency response graphs (this is for dash, door and rear-deck speakers only - don't have a before/after for the sub handy).
BEFORE EQ:
AFTER EQ:
FYI - Not to steal Dougs thunder, but I noticed that Audiotec Fischer has put a new Beta version of the DSP PC-Tool up on their website - version 4.60a:
https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/dsp-pc-tool/dsp-pc-tool-version-4/
Release notes are not published yet, but after a quick run-through for the DSP.3, I didn't see much new:
- Channel labels are correct for the FX functions (Channel H for Augmented Bass Processing, for example)
- New "EQ Band AutoSort" option in the DCM->PC-Tool Configuration screen. I was really happy to see this option! Doesn't quite work the way I expected though - mixes PEQ and GEQ bands in the sorting and for channels A & B, bands 1 and 2 aren't included in the sorting for some reason - not sure if it's a bug or intended due to the option of using band 2 for tone control if you have wifi or director. I kind of wish there was an option to sort PEQ and GEQ bands "separately" - and to include bands 1 and 2 in the sort - but I'm just glad they are working on it! Even having the ability to manually "move" bands around would be nice.
Also, can see the virtual channel stuff if you select DSP Ultra at the main screen. Not avail for DSP.3 though...
https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/dsp-pc-tool/dsp-pc-tool-version-4/
Release notes are not published yet, but after a quick run-through for the DSP.3, I didn't see much new:
- Channel labels are correct for the FX functions (Channel H for Augmented Bass Processing, for example)
- New "EQ Band AutoSort" option in the DCM->PC-Tool Configuration screen. I was really happy to see this option! Doesn't quite work the way I expected though - mixes PEQ and GEQ bands in the sorting and for channels A & B, bands 1 and 2 aren't included in the sorting for some reason - not sure if it's a bug or intended due to the option of using band 2 for tone control if you have wifi or director. I kind of wish there was an option to sort PEQ and GEQ bands "separately" - and to include bands 1 and 2 in the sort - but I'm just glad they are working on it! Even having the ability to manually "move" bands around would be nice.
Also, can see the virtual channel stuff if you select DSP Ultra at the main screen. Not avail for DSP.3 though...
They weren't supposed to put it up yet, but it's there. I'm on a plane, so I haven't done anything with it to see if it is anything different than I've been using for the past few weeks, they were supposed to make some changes, I can see one has been done, so hopefully others are as well. I almost wish I was home to plug it into my ULTRA and really see if changes are made. The Virtual Channels are only on the DSP ULTRA and V-EIGHT DSP MK2 for now. Others will be added in , but I don't think any will be retroactive.
Actually, the more that I think about it, it would be better if the "EQ Band AutoSort" option just put all bands with a gain of 0dB (meaning not being used) at the end of the band list - regardless of whether they are PEQ or GEQ.
As it is now, when sorted, I get these un-used GEQ bands (which is what they default to - GEQ), intermixed with the PEQ bands that I'm actually using. Would just be nice to have all of my PEQ bands in order without the un-sed bands being intermixed with them. Putting bands with a gain of 0dB at the end would solve this issue - and still have correct sorting even if you have mixed PEQ/GEQ bands in use.
Not sure what the deal is with bands 1 and 2 not being included in the sort properly - especially because it only does that on channels 1 & 2. If it were related to the ability to define the 1st and 2nd bands as shelt/tone filters, then you'd think it would happen on all channels.... Maybe it's just a bug.
I realize that I could just redefine them all "in order", but that's a PITA for PEQ bands. Another simple solution would be to allow the user to "grab" a PEQ band by click-and-hold'ing the freq below the band and allowing them to "drag and drop" it to where ever they wanted. This would allow people to re-organize the bands manually pretty quickly and easily. Just thinking out loud.
Doug - when I come across something that I think is a bug, should I report that to you or directly to Audiotec Fischer? I'm usually pretty good as finding bugs since I like exploring each and every option in software.
As it is now, when sorted, I get these un-used GEQ bands (which is what they default to - GEQ), intermixed with the PEQ bands that I'm actually using. Would just be nice to have all of my PEQ bands in order without the un-sed bands being intermixed with them. Putting bands with a gain of 0dB at the end would solve this issue - and still have correct sorting even if you have mixed PEQ/GEQ bands in use.
Not sure what the deal is with bands 1 and 2 not being included in the sort properly - especially because it only does that on channels 1 & 2. If it were related to the ability to define the 1st and 2nd bands as shelt/tone filters, then you'd think it would happen on all channels.... Maybe it's just a bug.
I realize that I could just redefine them all "in order", but that's a PITA for PEQ bands. Another simple solution would be to allow the user to "grab" a PEQ band by click-and-hold'ing the freq below the band and allowing them to "drag and drop" it to where ever they wanted. This would allow people to re-organize the bands manually pretty quickly and easily. Just thinking out loud.
Doug - when I come across something that I think is a bug, should I report that to you or directly to Audiotec Fischer? I'm usually pretty good as finding bugs since I like exploring each and every option in software.
Release Notes have now been updated as well (I must have stumbled on this new version like *right* after it was made available, before they even got to update the release notes):
4.60a
* HELIX DSP ULTRA has been implemented
* ACO platform - ACO Update has been improved. In addition it is now possible to save all sound setup files at once into one folder during the update process. This function can also be activated manually by clicking on the gear-wheels in the launcher screen.
* ACO platform - A new signed and certified USB driver has been implemented which is installed during setup process of the DSP PC-Tool. This new driver runs on all Windows version starting from Win 7 (32- & 64-Bit) and offers highest possible compatibility and security
* VCP - A completely new concept called “Virtual Channel Processing” has been implemented in the DSP PC-Tool software.
The new VCP concept extends the DSP by additional “Virtual Channels” which behave similar to the known “Output Channels” and are placed between the inputs and the outputs. These “Virtual Channels” make the system design of highly complex configurations easier than before while also adding a lot of new functions to the system as well. Some of these new functions are “Group EQ, Gain & Time” capabilities, freely routable “DSP sound effects”, a new volume control called “Rear Attenuation” and much more.
Further explanations can be found in the instruction manual of the DSP ULTRA, in the DSP PC-Tool itself and as well on our other information channels.
This new function as well as some more detailed information can be found in the DCM menu. The activation of the function is not reversible for each sound setup and can only be set back to default by performing a soft reset via the “Reset All” function in the software.
This feature is actually only available for the DSP ULTRA and will be implemented in selected upcoming products. Due to its high demand on computing power of the DSP and Co-Processor it will not be possible to add this concept to existing products.
* General - Sound Setup Selection window has been reworked. It fits now to the scalable design of all other windows and behaves more intuitive.
* General - The selected menu section is now highlighted in the main menu
* Main / Outputs - The selection of the EQ filter type has been reworked. The selection is now offered as a drop down menu to get a better overview of the available filter types on each EQ band and allow faster access. In addition it is not necessary any more to toggle through all types. Also the number fields of the different filter types have been improved to accept all filled in number formats and decimal separators
* DCM / PC-Tool configuration - A new function called “EQ Band AutoSort” has been implemented which sorts the EQ bands of each channel by frequency. This is very helpful when a lot of parametric EQs with different center frequencies have been used.
* ISA - the Input Signal Analyzer of all ACO enabled products has been further improved and its configuration has been made easier.
* DSP.3 / PP 86DSP / M 5DSP - some wrong texts and channel references have been corrected (only text changes)
* Keyboard Shortcuts - Due to compatibility the “Link / Unlink all” shortcut has been changed from “.” (dot) to “Shift + .” (Shift + dot) and the “Enable/Disable Link Groups” has been changed from “,” (comma) to “Shift + ,” (Shift + comma).
* A huge number of small improvements to the GUI and the Backend have been implemented
* An ACO firmware update is necessary for this DSP PC-Tool Update and will be started automatically after connecting to the DSP
* HELIX DSP ULTRA has been implemented
* ACO platform - ACO Update has been improved. In addition it is now possible to save all sound setup files at once into one folder during the update process. This function can also be activated manually by clicking on the gear-wheels in the launcher screen.
* ACO platform - A new signed and certified USB driver has been implemented which is installed during setup process of the DSP PC-Tool. This new driver runs on all Windows version starting from Win 7 (32- & 64-Bit) and offers highest possible compatibility and security
* VCP - A completely new concept called “Virtual Channel Processing” has been implemented in the DSP PC-Tool software.
The new VCP concept extends the DSP by additional “Virtual Channels” which behave similar to the known “Output Channels” and are placed between the inputs and the outputs. These “Virtual Channels” make the system design of highly complex configurations easier than before while also adding a lot of new functions to the system as well. Some of these new functions are “Group EQ, Gain & Time” capabilities, freely routable “DSP sound effects”, a new volume control called “Rear Attenuation” and much more.
Further explanations can be found in the instruction manual of the DSP ULTRA, in the DSP PC-Tool itself and as well on our other information channels.
This new function as well as some more detailed information can be found in the DCM menu. The activation of the function is not reversible for each sound setup and can only be set back to default by performing a soft reset via the “Reset All” function in the software.
This feature is actually only available for the DSP ULTRA and will be implemented in selected upcoming products. Due to its high demand on computing power of the DSP and Co-Processor it will not be possible to add this concept to existing products.
* General - Sound Setup Selection window has been reworked. It fits now to the scalable design of all other windows and behaves more intuitive.
* General - The selected menu section is now highlighted in the main menu
* Main / Outputs - The selection of the EQ filter type has been reworked. The selection is now offered as a drop down menu to get a better overview of the available filter types on each EQ band and allow faster access. In addition it is not necessary any more to toggle through all types. Also the number fields of the different filter types have been improved to accept all filled in number formats and decimal separators
* DCM / PC-Tool configuration - A new function called “EQ Band AutoSort” has been implemented which sorts the EQ bands of each channel by frequency. This is very helpful when a lot of parametric EQs with different center frequencies have been used.
* ISA - the Input Signal Analyzer of all ACO enabled products has been further improved and its configuration has been made easier.
* DSP.3 / PP 86DSP / M 5DSP - some wrong texts and channel references have been corrected (only text changes)
* Keyboard Shortcuts - Due to compatibility the “Link / Unlink all” shortcut has been changed from “.” (dot) to “Shift + .” (Shift + dot) and the “Enable/Disable Link Groups” has been changed from “,” (comma) to “Shift + ,” (Shift + comma).
* A huge number of small improvements to the GUI and the Backend have been implemented
* An ACO firmware update is necessary for this DSP PC-Tool Update and will be started automatically after connecting to the DSP
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auditorycanvas
Noob
Doug, I hope this isn't a stupid question, but assuming the rest of the equipment chain has the capability to reproduce/relay it, is there a noticeable difference in SQ between the Ultra and the DPS.3?
Yes Siree ( huge . . . Humongous ... )!
Yeah, that whole VCP thing really adds a whole new level of complexity, that's for sure. At this point, I don't fully understand what the benefits are though, other than the obvious, which is that you have full control over which FX features apply to which channels (instead of it being "hardcoded" to certain channels) - but I have a feeling that is a somewhat "minor" benefit of VCP.
Does anyone else understand the real-world benefits of this VCP functionality?
I was expecting something a lot "simpler" - but I'm sure this new functionality has many "pros" that I'm completely unaware of.
EDIT: Also, I'm curious if anyone else has tried the 4.60a beta version on their DSP.3 yet. I'm actually holding off since there really isn't much of anything beneficial for the DSP.3 (especially since the EQ sort function doesn't really work as expected). I see that it requires a an ACO update and everything.
Ok, I have a stupid question regarding loading tunes on the Helix DSP.3. Typically, I'll take measurements in-car, work on the tune with REW in the comfort of my home and then later I'll load it on the DSP and take new measurements - rinse and repeat.
If I load a tune into the Helix DSP.3 from a file, I click the "Load" button in the PC-Tool software and select the file. However, that doesn't "save" it into one of the 10 "slots" on the DSP itself, so I then have to click "Save & Store", which lets me save it to one of the "slots", but then it makes me save the file that I just loaded? The fact that I have to save the tune back to the file that I just loaded it from just seems a little strange. Am I doing something wrong? Is there a way to simply save the current tune to a "slot" without also saving it to a file?
The process just seems a little redundant in that I have to save the tune to the file that I just loaded it from.
Not a big deal, just curious if I'm missing something.
Thank you!
If I load a tune into the Helix DSP.3 from a file, I click the "Load" button in the PC-Tool software and select the file. However, that doesn't "save" it into one of the 10 "slots" on the DSP itself, so I then have to click "Save & Store", which lets me save it to one of the "slots", but then it makes me save the file that I just loaded? The fact that I have to save the tune back to the file that I just loaded it from just seems a little strange. Am I doing something wrong? Is there a way to simply save the current tune to a "slot" without also saving it to a file?
The process just seems a little redundant in that I have to save the tune to the file that I just loaded it from.
Not a big deal, just curious if I'm missing something.
Thank you!
This "EQ Band AutoSort" feature looks interesting.. This might change a bit how I approach driver vs sides vs overall system EQ. Not sure yet how that will look. I've approached it in a few different methods. One being all Parametric using the lower (left side bands) for individual driver EQ, then using bands above that on the right side for grouped driver EQ for things like whole left side or whole right side, etc. Appears that won't be the way to do it with EQ Band Autosort. Something to ponder.
This almost supports or rather promotes simply JUST individual driver EQ, then make it match up and sum together with phase, then if there's a band here that needs a tweak, do that by grouping the two and finding a common band location "somewhere" that's unused between both drivers. Now I'm seeing why John Kiser has been such a proponent for input and output separate EQ's. Typically if summation in crossover regions isn't spot on, there's a phase issue to address with TA as opposed to EQ so really EQ should be the last resort when you begin summing drivers only after verifying time arrival and phase between those drivers. Sorry.. Off on a tangent there. I guess point being, I've found when I do my best to make the drivers match a desired target including crossover slopes throughout the audible region the driver is playing, the less of any other EQ I've needed once I've eliminated phase problems with TA between drivers.
This almost supports or rather promotes simply JUST individual driver EQ, then make it match up and sum together with phase, then if there's a band here that needs a tweak, do that by grouping the two and finding a common band location "somewhere" that's unused between both drivers. Now I'm seeing why John Kiser has been such a proponent for input and output separate EQ's. Typically if summation in crossover regions isn't spot on, there's a phase issue to address with TA as opposed to EQ so really EQ should be the last resort when you begin summing drivers only after verifying time arrival and phase between those drivers. Sorry.. Off on a tangent there. I guess point being, I've found when I do my best to make the drivers match a desired target including crossover slopes throughout the audible region the driver is playing, the less of any other EQ I've needed once I've eliminated phase problems with TA between drivers.
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Ok, I have a stupid question regarding loading tunes on the Helix DSP.3. Typically, I'll take measurements in-car, work on the tune with REW in the comfort of my home and then later I'll load it on the DSP and take new measurements - rinse and repeat.
If I load a tune into the Helix DSP.3 from a file, I click the "Load" button in the PC-Tool software and select the file. However, that doesn't "save" it into one of the 10 "slots" on the DSP itself, so I then have to click "Save & Store", which lets me save it to one of the "slots", but then it makes me save the file that I just loaded? The fact that I have to save the tune back to the file that I just loaded it from just seems a little strange. Am I doing something wrong? Is there a way to simply save the current tune to a "slot" without also saving it to a file?
The process just seems a little redundant in that I have to save the tune to the file that I just loaded it from.
Not a big deal, just curious if I'm missing something.
Thank you!
everything always saves as a file..