Your nonsensical bullshit is getting old
Helix DSP.3 help thread
- Thread starter jtrosky
- Start date
There is an output level on the Amppro.
BigFish by Tim Burton is based in Alabama ( I couldn't in good conscience call you out when it comes to knowing B.S. )!
Are you getting noise in your system? If not then don't worry about the amp gain. All those knobs are for is to match gain. If the gain is matched, and you have zero noise, why fix what isn't broke? You are not going to gain (pun intended) anything by turning one knob up and the other one down if there is zero noise.
If you have noise, then yes, turning down the amp gains CAN help lower the noise level, but that is never a guarantee because maybe the DSP is causing the noise (I doubt it but it might) and turning up the DSP input/output could actually cause more noise.
If you have noise, then yes, turning down the amp gains CAN help lower the noise level, but that is never a guarantee because maybe the DSP is causing the noise (I doubt it but it might) and turning up the DSP input/output could actually cause more noise.
Are you talking about what they call the "Minimum Volume" level that can be set with the little rotary knob included with the AP4? I wasn't sure if that was a true "gain" control or if it was just altering the volume "steps" of the volume control, meaning that the max output level would remain the same, just that the amount of increase of each volume step would change slightly. I'll have to try that and see if that actually changes the output levels at all volumes or just lower volume levels. Wasn't real sure what that actually did or didn't do. Not everything works the same with the optical output either (for example, no bass knob function when using digital, which makes sense). There isn't much documentation on the AP4 optical output and how it acts differently than the analog outputs. I'm definitely not a fan of how the AP4 digital output works in regards to "overlaying" Android Auto navigation instructions, etc. Instead of just lowering the volume and overlaying the nav instructions smoothly, there is a brief cutout, then the instruction, then another very brief cutout before the music comes back full volume. At least I'm assuming it's a "side effect" of using the AP4 optical output. Was buttery smooth with the DSR-1 using analog outputs.
Of course there is noise - any/every amp has an audible "noise floor". If the music is loud enough and there is a quiet part of the song, there is always going to be some "noise floor" hiss. It would just seem to me that you'd want to keep the power amp gains as low as possible, while still getting the volume level you want/need (which is the reason most people prefer higher voltages on the low-level analog outputs, so they can keep the amp gains as low as possible). Since I don't have any low-level gain settings on the AmpPro for the optical output (unless the "minimum volume" setting talked about above is actually a gain control), I was just thinking that "boosting" the digital signal on the DSP input would introduce considerably less "noise floor" hiss than "boosting" the analog signals via the power amp gains - but maybe I'm wrong about that - which is why I asked.
Just trying to "optimize" things as much as possible - and learn some stuff.
Just because I have a "theory" doesn't mean it will hold water in real life.
Obviously, I can go and test it, but I always like talking about something like this first, just to make sure there isn't some drawback that I'm not aware of or even to see if it's really a good idea or not. Yes, there will be a noise floor. But that noise floor definitely can change and be lower/higher. I have noise that at full volume on my HU I have to put my ear next to any of my speakers to be able to hear. I can't hear it sitting in my drivers seat. If your noise floor was like mine, then why change what is working? If it isn't then yes, I would try some other things to get rid of it.
I wouldn't expect the noise floor to be raised by lowering the amp gain and raising the DSP input/output gains. I would expect some noise to actually go away with a helix dsp.3 gains being higher and the amps gains being lower. Or at least no change in the noise floor. But that may not be the case and it is possible to actually cause more noise. That is something you will have to test if the noise floor is more than you can tolerate.
I wouldn't expect the noise floor to be raised by lowering the amp gain and raising the DSP input/output gains. I would expect some noise to actually go away with a helix dsp.3 gains being higher and the amps gains being lower. Or at least no change in the noise floor. But that may not be the case and it is possible to actually cause more noise. That is something you will have to test if the noise floor is more than you can tolerate.
This conversation is theoretical at this point. I haven't noticed a significant noise floor since upgrading to the DSP.3, but I haven't really checked for it either. I have heard some hiss on some songs, but it could be in the recording itself (older music). The reason I mentioned it was simply because I'm not seeing any colors on the channel gain bar in the DSP.3 - ever - even at very loud volumes (no blue, no red, etc - just black), which has me thinking that the digital signal coming from my amppro may be very low for some reason... So I need to explore a few different things (AmpPro "minimum volume" setting, check for any significant noise floor with a "silence" noise track, possibly raising optical input gain on DSP.3 and lowering amp gain if needed, etc).
I haven't spent much time playing with the AP4/DSP.3 yet - just got a decent, maybe "final" tune in it yesterday. Working on it in very short 'bursts" so far. Sounds fantastic so far though. I don't have any volume level issues with "local" media (mp3, flac, etc), XM or even FM, but if there is a particularly quiet song playing over AndroidAuto, I *could* run out of volume if I wanted it REALLY loud. Just trying to fine-tune everything. May just end up setting gains via Android Auto so that I'm covered no matter what (instead of setting gains with the louder USB local file input).
As usual, thanks for the input everyone!
I haven't spent much time playing with the AP4/DSP.3 yet - just got a decent, maybe "final" tune in it yesterday. Working on it in very short 'bursts" so far. Sounds fantastic so far though.
I don't have any volume level issues with "local" media (mp3, flac, etc), XM or even FM, but if there is a particularly quiet song playing over AndroidAuto, I *could* run out of volume if I wanted it REALLY loud. Just trying to fine-tune everything. May just end up setting gains via Android Auto so that I'm covered no matter what (instead of setting gains with the louder USB local file input). As usual, thanks for the input everyone!
Ok, for what it's worth, I was *finally* able to see a very small, very quick glimpse of the blue background in the "Channel Gain & Output Level" field on one of my channels. Apparently, you don't see the blue background until you get up to at least -25dB (or somewhere near that). So that is why I wasn't seeing the colored backgrounds - the signal was just never high enough. I was able to see it by boosting the optical input in the IO screen (just for testing). At least now I know it's working.
I still think that the digital signal going into the DSP.3 is kind of low for whatever reason - and that I would be able to reduce the gains on my amps by quite a bit if I boost the digital input signal (by maybe 3dB-6dB). I did briefly mess with the AmpPro 4 "Minimum Volume Level" setting, but if I were to increase that by any significant amount, then my head-unit would be too loud for my liking at it's lowest volume setting - so boosting the digital input in the DSP.3 would definitely be the best option.
Playing a "silence" track, I was able to easily hear some noise floor hiss at the last few volume level settings on my head-unit - but it would be *extremely* rare for me to have the system turned up that high, so it's not something that is a big deal. I still may mess with the digital input level and amp gain levels though, just out of curiosity to see if I can reduce the "noise floor" hiss even more. I didn't check to see if there was any "noise floor" hiss when nothing was playing at all, but I'm thinking that I won't since my OEM head-unit mutes the outputs when not playing anything.
Will experiment some more to see if I can remove the "noise floor" hiss completely, just because...
Apparently, you don't see the blue background until you get up to at least -25dB (or somewhere near that). So that is why I wasn't seeing the colored backgrounds - the signal was just never high enough. I was able to see it by boosting the optical input in the IO screen (just for testing). At least now I know it's working. I still think that the digital signal going into the DSP.3 is kind of low for whatever reason - and that I would be able to reduce the gains on my amps by quite a bit if I boost the digital input signal (by maybe 3dB-6dB). I did briefly mess with the AmpPro 4 "Minimum Volume Level" setting, but if I were to increase that by any significant amount, then my head-unit would be too loud for my liking at it's lowest volume setting - so boosting the digital input in the DSP.3 would definitely be the best option.
Playing a "silence" track, I was able to easily hear some noise floor hiss at the last few volume level settings on my head-unit - but it would be *extremely* rare for me to have the system turned up that high, so it's not something that is a big deal. I still may mess with the digital input level and amp gain levels though, just out of curiosity to see if I can reduce the "noise floor" hiss even more.
I didn't check to see if there was any "noise floor" hiss when nothing was playing at all, but I'm thinking that I won't since my OEM head-unit mutes the outputs when not playing anything.Will experiment some more to see if I can remove the "noise floor" hiss completely, just because...
Ok, for what it's worth, I was *finally* able to see a very small, very quick glimpse of the blue background in the "Channel Gain & Output Level" field on one of my channels.
Turn it all.the way up !
Radio Shack Fiber Optic Signal Amplifier (15-1588) Toslink connectors https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GPL6OI/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_gf-6DbRHPFX0F
Don't need anything "extra" to boost my optical digital signal - I can boost it up to 10dB on the input side of the Helix alone... I wouldn't boost it anywhere near that much - probably between 3dB and 6dB, if at all. Just curious how much more I can reduce the "noise floor" noise by boosting the digital signal and lowering the amp gains. Certainly not needed, but just an "I'm curious" and "why not" type of thing... Like I mentioned earlier, it just seems to me that I'd want to keep the amp gains as low as I can (while still getting full power out of the amp), in order to keep the "noise floor" noise as low as possible.Turn it all.the way up !
Radio Shack Fiber Optic Signal Amplifier (15-1588) Toslink connectors https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GPL6OI/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_gf-6DbRHPFX0F
Do optical digital signals "degrade" or lower in level at all due to cable lengths? I'm assuming not (at least in any significant way), but I'm new to this digital stuff... I bought the AmpPro4 from someone that couldn't use it (didn't have a stock "premium" system) and it even came with an optical cable that was pretty long (probably ~5ft. longer than I really needed - I'm guessing it was between 15ft and 20ft - didn't measure it though) - just curious if that may have anything to do with the low signal level or not.
Damn - I sure do wish all recordings were done as well as 'The Wall" by Pink Floyd. That album sounds freaking amazing... It just has the perfect "balance". I've noticed that Time Life compilation recordings are also very well done (remastered or something, I guess?) and believe it or not, I also love some of the Black Sabbath recordings - again, just the right balance... Into The Void from "The Best of Black Sabbath" has been a go-to lately.
It's hard to pinpoint exactly what is different with Helix and the DSR-1 that I replaced, but the system just sounds so much more "dynamic". The system just down right sounds better with the Helix.
I wasn't really a fan of the Helix FX options when I tried them briefly - for the "Front Processing", the StageXpander just seems to mess up the staging and the "ClarityXpander just makes things overly bright. Haven't really tried the Augmented Bass Processing yet.
Does anyone else find any of the Helix "FX" options beneficial?
It just has the perfect "balance". I've noticed that Time Life compilation recordings are also very well done (remastered or something, I guess?) and believe it or not, I also love some of the Black Sabbath recordings - again, just the right balance... Into The Void from "The Best of Black Sabbath" has been a go-to lately. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what is different with Helix and the DSR-1 that I replaced, but the system just sounds so much more "dynamic". The system just down right sounds better with the Helix.
I wasn't really a fan of the Helix FX options when I tried them briefly - for the "Front Processing", the StageXpander just seems to mess up the staging and the "ClarityXpander just makes things overly bright. Haven't really tried the Augmented Bass Processing yet.
Does anyone else find any of the Helix "FX" options beneficial?
Well, supposedly, the Augmented Bass Processing (the "Dynamic Bass Enhancement" part) actually only works at lower volumes. My understanding is that it boosts the bass at lower volumes, but not at higher volumes - so as you turn the volume up, the bass bost applied actually decreases - and eventually won't boost at all at higher volumes. So it sounds like it might be a good thing to enable. You can specify the boost frequency (or set to "Auto") and can specify the gain amount (0dB - 9dB). Not sure if it actually does anything if enabled, but set to 0dB? Anyway, I'll have to try this feature out - sounds like it's a good idea in theory since it mainly does it's thing at lower volumes.
Not sure exactly what "SubXpander" does - says "Adds subharmonic tones to the fundamental bass for an ultra-deep bass experience".
No adjustments for this setting - just on or off.I only have an under-seat sub (8"), so anything I can do to help the bass, I'm all for it...
The *level* of bass I get from the under-seat sub isn't the issue (it's actually capable of more volume level that I need) - it's just that it doesn't go as low as a real sub. Really, it's only good for down to 35hz - and even that requires a significant boost.
But yes, as you say, it's better than nothing - and honestly, for my goals, it's actually sufficient. I'm not looking for window-shaking bass - just *accurate* lows. It matches my 75W RMS x 6 amp really well in terms of output levels. It's a JBL BassPro SL.
I could put another one under the drivers seat if I really wanted to, but not sure it's beneficial in my case since I have enough volume from the one I have. Adding another won't make them play any lower.
But yes, as you say, it's better than nothing - and honestly, for my goals, it's actually sufficient. I'm not looking for window-shaking bass - just *accurate* lows. It matches my 75W RMS x 6 amp really well in terms of output levels. It's a JBL BassPro SL.
I could put another one under the drivers seat if I really wanted to, but not sure it's beneficial in my case since I have enough volume from the one I have. Adding another won't make them play any lower.
I will say - for what it is, that under-seat subwoofer is pretty impressive. After all, it's less than 3" in height. It's 125W RMS sounds like a lot more than it really is since it's literally right next to you (or right under you if installed under the drivers seat) - as opposed to a full sub box that is in the trunk with the rear seats between it and you. The under-seat sub is actually more than enough volume wise - I have to keep it's level down in order to match the output from my door, dash and rear-deck speakers running at full-tilt.
My 6x9 door and 3.5" dash speakers require the exact same amp gain levels to keep them at the correct volume level - they came as a component set that can be run using an included passive crossover or in an active setup, so I guess they design them so that they require the same output levels from the amp so they can also be run on a single channel with the passive crossover. At least I guess that is how that works? Whatever the reason, they do require the same amp gain settings. In fact, I use the same amp gain settings for all of my speakers - my rear deck speakers are from the same Kenwood line as the front component set (all a "matched" set).
Front component set - Kenwood Excelon KFC-XP6903C
Rear Deck 6.5" set - Kenwood Excelon KFC-X174
I have been really impressed with the Kenwood speakers. They sound fantastic, especially after the system is fully tuned. I would recommend them in heartbeat for anyone looking for inexpensive "drop-in" factory replacement speakers.
It's 125W RMS sounds like a lot more than it really is since it's literally right next to you (or right under you if installed under the drivers seat) - as opposed to a full sub box that is in the trunk with the rear seats between it and you. The under-seat sub is actually more than enough volume wise - I have to keep it's level down in order to match the output from my door, dash and rear-deck speakers running at full-tilt.My 6x9 door and 3.5" dash speakers require the exact same amp gain levels to keep them at the correct volume level - they came as a component set that can be run using an included passive crossover or in an active setup, so I guess they design them so that they require the same output levels from the amp so they can also be run on a single channel with the passive crossover. At least I guess that is how that works? Whatever the reason, they do require the same amp gain settings. In fact, I use the same amp gain settings for all of my speakers - my rear deck speakers are from the same Kenwood line as the front component set (all a "matched" set).
Front component set - Kenwood Excelon KFC-XP6903C
Rear Deck 6.5" set - Kenwood Excelon KFC-X174
I have been really impressed with the Kenwood speakers. They sound fantastic, especially after the system is fully tuned. I would recommend them in heartbeat for anyone looking for inexpensive "drop-in" factory replacement speakers.
Yeah ... underseat subs with a small/medium amp is actually plenty powerful and strong, and we really don't need more subs and bigger amps further away in the trunk. It's just our build log will look like it's missing a big sub box and will have to keep explaining it to people that don't understand it (yet) lol. Sound level follows the inverse square law (physics) and it's going to be very strong/powerful when it's nearby with just moderate power.